difference between a perfect 4 and perfect 5

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TheGmus
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difference between a perfect 4 and perfect 5

Postby TheGmus » Mar 29, 2007 11:57 am

Hi,

I'm stuck at lesson 21 for days now. It's the lesson where the perfect 4 , dim5 and perfect 5 are played at the same time. I think it's so hard because the perfect 4 and perfect 5 are almost identical.

The perfect 5 of C for example (C-G) sound almost identical to the perfect 4 of G (G-C)

Are there any tips for this one? Is it a good idea to just continue with the next lessons?

Cheers,
Eddy

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james_the_composer
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Postby james_the_composer » Mar 29, 2007 8:51 pm

I'm a big fan of David Lucas Burges Ear Training Super Course. It is a guided audio course that spans more than 30 CD's; each CD being 1 lesson.

I do not think that it is ever a good idea to move on, but instead just keep listening until you get it. It will take more than 1-3 days to get both the Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth intervals harmonically, ascending, and descending.

Perfect Fourths and Perfect Fifths were an interval that, to me, was almost impossible to finish at first. David Lucas Burge would demand that I identify them at lightning quick speed. Also, you would have to be able to sing the interval up and down as well as name it while doing so.


What I suggest, is to try something similar to the David Lucas Burge course:

"If I play a 'D' on piano, Sing a Perfect Fourth up from that D AND name the tone at the same time."

If you can't do it, learn how. It is a very simple and fun process.

Take 20 minutes a day and play 'C, then above it F' and sing along. Then do the same thing a half step up. "C#, F#". Keep doing this in Sound Rounds of 20 minutes at a time (takes a LOT of self discipline, but well worth it) so that the interval is grinded in your head enough to the point where you can sing it WITHOUT the piano.

Do this practice with the Perfect Fifths also, singing along to the piano as you play.

This will make you as good as those future professionals who are studying in UCLA and Berklee, Boston. Learn to do it, and I PROMISE you will not regret it.


Slow down in your practices, let it take an entire week if it has to. Once you get this down, you will be amazingly better. It's about working at the blocks until you can get past them at your own pace, not about how fast you learn them.


Try just doing P4 and P5, setting the program to a time limit of 5 seconds for each question (or something higher if your having trouble), and getting 30 in a row right without getting 1 wrong. This is something that students take loads of time to do, and if you are patient and don't get discouraged (since it can be almost impossible some days) you will be as good as any favorite composer you wish to be as good as.

It's something that is unconciously learned over the course of 40 years, or conciously learned over the course of 1 month (thanks to this amazing program).

Good Luck, don't push yourself too hard.


After learning the Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth, I suggest moving on to learning the Major 3rd and minor 3rd (since 99% of music is made up of thirds). After this, move on to Chord Degrees, first position, second position and root position.
Ear Training, UCLA

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TheGmus
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Postby TheGmus » Apr 02, 2007 10:25 am

Hi James,

Thanks for the extremely helpful reply! I'm will give the method you sugested a serious try.

You right, sometimes I just forget that the reason I do these exersices is to train my ears, and not to complete all the lessons as fast as I can.

Thanks again!
Eddy

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TheGmus
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Postby TheGmus » Apr 10, 2007 6:37 am

Yes! I'm finally getting it!!! :-D :-D

perfect practice, makes perfect...

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Bleiz
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Postby Bleiz » Apr 13, 2007 2:12 pm

Hi, this is my first post. I fell on earmaster by accident and have been hooked on it since then. I too have been stuck at the perfect 4th 5dim and perfect 5, but i just found something that made me pass from an average of 60% right answers to around 95%, at least for exercise 18. Here it is:

Theres a song everyone knows, i dont know what its called, but maybe if i write it some ppl will recognise and give me the exact name. It goes something like this: Faldareee ! Faldaraaa ! Faldareee ! Faldara-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha...

Im sure you know what I'm talking about. Anyhow, that song's faldaree is a perfect fourth. And faldaraa is a perfect fifth. Now listen to the two notes, and ask yourself weather or not you could start that song with it. If so, its a fourth!
If not, its either a fifth or a 5dim, but 5dims are easy to figure out i find.

Thats it, i hope itll help you guys as much as it helped me !

Thanks !

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Frambo
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Postby Frambo » Apr 28, 2007 2:22 am

Hey Eddy, I'm stuck on Exercise 21 of Interval Comparison too. It's interesting the ambiguity of 4ths and 5ths like your example GC and CG. I didnt have any trouble with the harmonic exercise (exercise 9) when there was a common tone or when notes are played seperately but have been making slow progress with uncommon tones ~ I wont move on until I get it. I find it more difficult when the notes are a low pitch. How are you doing with it now? Have you found a method that works for you?

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Bojan
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stuck on lesson 21 interval comparison

Postby Bojan » Apr 28, 2007 4:59 am

What percentage do you get? I just tried the same lesson and I got 60% from the first try. I'll try again and tell you when I get through it. I guess I've been practicing long enough to be able to easily recognize 4th, 5th and tritone. Just keep adequate song in mind, and keep practicing, you'll succeed.
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Frambo
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Postby Frambo » Apr 28, 2007 6:06 am

Tonight (4th day on ex 21) I relaxed and didnt think about it and tried to 'feel' the difference and got 93%. So I tried a few more repeats of ex21 and thought about the sound intervals and got 60's and 70's :-| . I'm starting to hear/feel the difference between the vibrations of a 4th and 5th. I'll keep repeating until I'm confident it's skill and not good luck ;-) The dim5 is no problem to hear or feel because the notes clash in the vibrations. I've trialed the programme for two weeks and I have improved my aural perception. I bought the licence today :D

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sven
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20 minutes ex

Postby sven » Apr 28, 2007 8:38 am

when you do the ex James-the-composer suggest, do Ido the 4th AND the 5th for 20 min everyday or do I take 1 interval at a time ?

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Bojan
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4th 5th exlusive tutorial

Postby Bojan » Apr 28, 2007 11:47 pm

I understood that James-the-compser suggested to practise BOTH 4th and 5th, as it would not make much sense to practise just one interval at a time...
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Frambo
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4th's & 5th's and Cadence definitions

Postby Frambo » Apr 29, 2007 2:34 am

Hey there folks who struggle or did struggle on 4th's and 5th's (i.e. ex21). This is day 5 for me on this exercise so I customised it to do only 4th's and 5th's (harmonic, non common notes, in a 1 octave range). This time (to my ears) the 4th's sounded resolved and the 5th's did not in comparison. With this new awareness of two different resolution sounds I got 48 from 50. Interestingly my mistakes are always with low pitches i.e. below middle C :-?
I understand that there are many resolving sounds (cadences ~ perfect, plagal, interupted, imperfect and possibly others) and the 'plagal' is a 4th and the 'perfect' is a 5th. I searched the help file but there was no definition of cadences (did I miss it?).
Excuse my theory ignorance but when someone refers to a cadence, which way does the resolution go? i.e. up or down ~ If we consider the key of C major would a 'plagal' be G going up to C? Would a 'perfect' be G going down to C?

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Bojan
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about cadences...

Postby Bojan » Apr 30, 2007 3:46 am

That’s just an individual thing, how you perceive the intervals. Personally, I find the 5th to have a more resolved sound. Now for the cadence: a cadence is the very end of a chord progression, containing two chords, which determine the nature of the cadence. Cadence is always on the end of a phrase (phrase being the smallest complete musical unit). It is those two chords that determine the quality of a cadence, not the movement, as a cadence always resolves downwards. Even if it goes up to octave (G to C), in music theory it’s considered that she goes to tonic, no matter were the tonic is. Now, there are several kind of cadences, “half cadence”, or HC, authentic cadence”, or AC, (which can be “perfect” AC or “imperfect” AC), “plagal” cadence, or PC, and finally, “deceptive” cadence, or DC. Don’t get confused about the naming, in UK they call the “deceptive” cadence the “interrupted” cadence, or InC. I could now start explaining which cadence implies what, but there’s a very wonderful (flash) page about Phrases and Cadences that you should take a look at, with audio examples, and thoroughly explained.
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Bojan
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cadences...

Postby Bojan » Apr 30, 2007 12:01 pm

I forgot to say, that what you noticed, Frambo, that it's more difficult to recognize an interval of a lower pitch, is a well know fact in music theory: human ear hear higher frequencies better. But it's a very good thing that you've noticed it yourself, because something you learn yourself sticks in your mind more clearly and firmly than from any book. I've also noticed that the first time I started working with EarMaster. It's much better to 'feel' something than to know about it from a book, but not know what to do with it.

Another thing, the page about 'Phrases and Cadences' I mentioned above comes in British English and 'normal' English, so you can take a look at both of them.
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Frambo
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Postby Frambo » Apr 30, 2007 9:01 pm

Hey Bojan, thanks for the information and weblink for theory. Very helpful :-D There must be many interesting subconscious facets to eartraining. I mentioned that my ears felt more resolved to the 4th interval (compared to 5th) in ex21. When I looked at why, it seemed my mind decided the higher note was the tonic so I guess I was interpreting that sound as a 'perfect' resolution even though the distance between tones was a 4th.

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Jayz
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Re: difference between a perfect 4 and perfect 5

Postby Jayz » Sep 27, 2019 2:56 am

This a very usefull technique that will prove very usefull in combination with a customized excercise with only p5 and p4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz-U0X7LBRA&t=586s


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